ReneeC

What is it about the debugger that people find so threatening




Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

_Nightblade_

I diddent know your bored.






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

DJSTU

somehow I feel this is a dig at me

lol






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

_Nightblade_

No i have a feeling that Renee is angre at me for

some reason.

So sins i don't no why i can't fix it.

But i do have a qlue about a C# sample

i have gotten from a unexpected friend

So i thought maybe a little joke can break the ys

but still no responce.

Then she can stay mad at me, but tel me atleast why!!!!!!!!!

Don't VBA me again, that was my bad that corrected already.

Nightblade






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

ReneeC

I'm not mad at either one of you. But I am mystified. I have seen so many people deprive themselves of using the debugger. Often when I'm helping a new developer and I ask them to use it, it's like pulling teeth to get them to try it and I wanted to get some opinions why.

Of course if one has never used the debugger, one doesn't know what they are missing as far as problem solving.

At one point, I wrote a very long and specific tutorial here on using the debugger.

The eason I brough this up was that if people knew how to use the debugger you just wouldn't see the "Exceptions and No Object reference errors that we are seeing now.






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

_Nightblade_

Renee

Why don't you right that specific tutorial again and place it under

your advicement to get more out of your questions and the one about

VB6 then ask martin Xie to lock it so it can't be removed.

Sins you have 5 stars they should take you more serious then

me with 1star.

It will be there for a long time do ( better check twice )

just a tought again.

Nightblade






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

ReneeC

I shouldn't be taken any more seriously than you nightblade. I've always opposed this merit system because I was everyone to be taken equally seriously (that is willing to their homeowrk.)

We can dig up the tutorial if someone will pin it up. It's in this forum...somewhere. Carsten really liked it.






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

Carsten Kanstrup

ReneeC

Year, and you can lead a horse to a description, but you can't make him/her read it - horses can't read .

I guess many beginners just want a fast, final answer - copy-and-paste this and it will work - although they woun't learn anything from this and have to ask again if they just want to change a comma.

You made a good description http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx PostID=1146268&SiteID=1 , but unfortunately it was very fast digged deep down into the archive, and it is difficult to find because the title is "Lesson #4 - Development" - not something with debugging or debugger. I think that it is a very good idea to pin it up as a fixed sticky on this forum, but if the moderators don't want to do that and you can't find a better place, we can put it in our knowledgebase together with my SerialPort description if you can rewrite it in such a way that it is suitable for that (I have given you that offer before).

PS. Where is Lesson #1-3





Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

ReneeC

Carsten,

I need to share many things. Back in the days I used to do programming with serial ports but those were real serial ports. It's been a while since I've done anything with a PC port probably ten years I guess. The mess you describe on windows serial poerts doesn't sound like something I'd want to nvo;ve myself with because it doesn't sound as if it's written well.

Give me a good piece of hardwire and I'll program it. But don't give me something that i have to loop on or to use sleep. That's just not a professional port implimentation and I'm not likely to invest much in it.

Renee






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

Carsten Kanstrup

ReneeC

I completely agree with you - give us some good hardware and we will program it.

I have just bought a $300 expensive kernel mode driver to be able to handle my serial port problems and talk directly to the hardware because Microsoft has been so "clever" as to take 11 bits from the receiver FIFO in the UART, truncate this to 8 bits (throw 3 vital bits away) and then store the result in a 16-bit variable (stream). Not the most clever programming I have ever seen!

Actually, SerialPort is not that bad if you don't need modern functions like separation of binary telegrams (0-255) by means of break (as I do), 9'th bit communication or automatic unit addressing. For all normal operation it is fine and easy to use although you need a little power nap now and then .

The problem is probably that Windows has grown to a size where nobody can overlook it anymore, so even if Microsoft (Kim Hamilton) knows about all these flaws, they will probably never be fixed. For example, an unhanded exception is thrown if you disconnect a serial port connected to a USB-to-Serial converter, but nobody dare to try to fix that because they woun't risk any instability!!!!!! From my many years of experience I have learned one thing: "The first sign that a project is going wrong is if small errors are not fixed in the next version or if previously fixed bugs turns up again."





Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

ReneeC

First of all let me congratulate you on the new driver!!!!! And I really agree on what you said. Not to bore but I came from a mini-mainframe environment where we had QIOs directly to and given drivers if we had the privileges which could be either synchronous or asych. It seems like every thing is synchronous when dealing with Windows




Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

Carsten Kanstrup

SerialPort is still asynchronous in Windows, but Ethernet is of course synchronous.

I don't know if you should congratulate me on that driver. It solves the problem by sending four bytes for each byte received, but "of course" without any synchronization, which can tell you which byte is the first one, so where is the reliability It is only a temporary, emergency solution until I get time and knowledge enough to write my own driver. I actually have one to modify, but 3.5 Mbytes of C++ code without any documentation at all takes some time to go through!

Microsoft has a nice philosophy that you don't need to know anything about the hardware and should be able to run the same program on many different computers (the reason for CLR), but this is of course an illusion. You cannot have the same hardware support in a mobile phone and a big work-station and trying to emulate the workstation hardware on the mobile phone will just make everything dead slow - like this forum when the Americans are not aSleep() . However, the philosophy means that for each layer Microsoft adds on top of the hardware, it gets more and more difficult to bypass all this to be able to do what you want. In the good old days, you just needed a base address on the hardware and a data sheet for the IC (UART), but nowadays it takes months or years to do the same - if at all possible.

It is a crazy world. You could easily make a CPU architecture with 10 times bigger code density and make the software 10 times more efficient. This would make it possible for most people to have enough computer power in a mobile phone with external keyboard and screen. Just imagine that world. No need for big stationary computers or laptops for most people. You would bring your entire office with you all the time, but this is of course completely off topic in a Microsoft forum, so I better stop now .





Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

jgalley

I think the debugger like many tools can be intimidating. If you came from a scripting environment with no good debugger then it is probably more intuitive to stick a print() in your code to try to figure out what is going on. I think it is just an unfortunate reality.

My guess is that many novice developers when faced with tabs labeled:

¡¤ watch

¡¤ locals

¡¤ call stack

¡¤ immediate

just scratch their heads. There is almost too much going on to make sense of it all. In fact, my guess is that many novices don¡¯t know how to set a break point or that the debugger will allow them to see variable contents using a simple mouseover.

I think there should really be more emphasis placed on providing introductions to tools and concepts when using the express version of the products.





Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

MindSet7

Hello ReneeC,

"I have seen so many people deprive themselves of using the debugger. Often when I'm helping a new developer and I ask them to use it"

You're right especially in my experience in this dimension of beginner, to hit debug and step into a 3000 lines of code and don't have any idea where it came from is like it's going to swallow my system so scary.

Lyds






Re: Visual Basic Express Edition Carsten, did you know you can lead a horse to the debugger but you can't make him/her use it?

ReneeC

No idea at all Is the problem an exception or inaccuracy ot erratic behavior